First round: Just Say NO! to Compromise
[The city of Austin proposed a smoking ordinance in 2003 that would have banned smoking in public places. It passed. They then went on to offer to sell "smoking permits" to businesses that wanted to allow smoking (pay to get a permit to do something that you should be able to do anyway, but have to pay for because the city government felt pressured to act by all the do-gooders out there, and then realized they'd created a massive cash cow that they could suck funds out of. It's a beautiful world, isn't it?) There was a chance that other alternatives to the original ban might be entertained alongside the permits idea, so...]
[Rock Howard proposed the following in response to the suggestion that any form of compromise would be an abandonment of our principles as libertarians (I reprint it because I agreed with it completely at the time; and in fact still do) as an example of how a compromise on a smoking ordinance would simply clarify business practices that already exist, allowing the customer to then make an informed choice]
To me an example of a workable compromise would be:
- If they wish, an establishment can sign up on a city maintained smoking registry, but doing so is not necessary if the owner puts up a sign near the entrance(s) of the establishment detailing their smoking policy. (Minimal signage would be: "Smoking Permitted".)
- If they wish, an establishment can sign up on a city maintained "smoke free" registry, but doing so is not necessary if the owner puts up a sign near the entrance(s) of the establishment to the effect detailing their smoking policy. (Minimal signage would be: "No Smoking" or "Smoke Free".)
This "compromise" would hopefully placate those who consider cigarette smoke as an assault on their personages. (For some people it actually is.) As far as abridging rights goes, it is simply coupling the right of the property owner to the equal and legitimate responsibility to make their smoking policy clear to prospective patrons either through signage or by the public process of signing up on a registry.
As far as the "permit" idea goes, let's see if we can dig up actual examples where a permitting process for smoking turned into a ban. If we can do that, then that would be helpful as it might give the business owners more intestinal fortitude about defending their rights. At this point many are seeing this as a life and death issue for their businesses and that makes more susceptible to a slippery slope compromise.
[When further objections were offered, he then posted the following:]
It is possible to stay with our principle but also get involved with the current process too. If we refuse to get involved for the sake of principle, then we abandon our constituents to their fate (which likely entails a slippery slope compromise that dooms them in the future.) The only other avenue is the courts, but we have no friends or power their either.
I have seen this fight in other cities and with the current political mindset of the voters, as long as it remains a political battle, we are doomed. If we can be smart and lucky we might be able to help craft a compromise that staves off the rights-snatchers for a while and, more importantly, helps preserve the livelihoods of our core constituents for the time being. If we do, then we will have bought ourselves some time as well as additional support for the long term project of opening up the minds of the people to the larger issue (i.e., the critical importance of personal property rights.) This will take time and money and, without it, we are just kidding ourselves about our ability to win this battle.
The only reason that I used the word "compromise" in the first place is that there are only two possibilities right now: 1) no compromise happens and the current harsh Smoking Ordinance goes into effect; or 2) a compromise occurs to stave off the most harsh effects of the ordinance for some time. I do not accept that there is a third option (as much as we would all prefer it) in the near future. I suggest that to get to the preferred outcome that we all want, it makes sense to be involved in the current process as the outcome of "no compromise" will simply kill off many of the small businesses that we are supposedly trying to support.
In point of fact, if the local [LP] works against some sort of compromise, then we are, in effect, working to enact the Smoking Ordinance. Go ahead and do so if that is what you want, but in my considered opinion that approach is counterproductive in the short, medium and long run.
A Smoker wrote:What about the rights of the non-smokers to do business in a smoke-free environment? What about the (real) health issues involved in breathing smoky air? I assure you that the solid majority of Austinites are 4-square behind an outright ban based on those two arguments alone.
If we try to mediate a compromise in this case, we are saying that government taking away just some of our rights is ok verses taking all of them. If we need to take this to court to fight this injustice we should, it would really make a name for ourselves. We should stand up for what's right, not for what we feel is acceptable for the moment.
I don't agree with them, but they are our audience.
A requirement to sign the exterior of your business is no different than putting ingredients on the outside of packages, or spelling out the details of a contract in advance. It's not a compromise, it's collaboration; an acknowledgement that there are telling arguments for those who support a ban, but that a ban is not necessary or even desirable.
IMO, signing the exterior of your business IS what is right. Some of us would prefer to do without the smoke. Thank you, Rock, for the level headed suggestion.
[The outcome of the vote on the smoking permits ? Landslide in favor of it, the council couldn't resist that cash cow. The local LP candidates (except for the exceptional Rock Howard) opposed all compromises and sunk any chance of sidestepping what happened then, and what happened next.]
[at the suggestion of the moderator at TCLPactive, I moved the discussion to my Liberty List]
Second round: Smoke lies are 50
[Can't find a link for the original article that this references, ACSH reformatted the site recently, and a good portion of the old articles were lost. The copy in the Archive at LL is representative of it, however]
A Smoker wrote:It has nothing to do with the number of trips. I can get in my car right now and drive, and while I stand a statistical chance of harm, the mere act of driving the car does not increase the chance in and of itself.
Getting in your car and driving will lead to serious health consequences, to the same degree that lighting a single cigarette will lead to serious health consequences.
My wife and I were test car drivers for quite awhile. She has driven more than a million miles. She's still breathing.
A relative of mine has smoked 3 packs of filterless cigarettes a day for 30 years. He's had cancer twice, (thankfully not lung cancer) cancer that is statistically related to smoking, and he still insists that the smoking isn't the problem, all the while smoking like a chimney. He may still be breathing now, the latest radiation treatments won't start for a few more weeks. The man could have lived in good health to the age of 100 or more, without the cigarettes. I personally don't think he'll see 70 because of them.
There are three kinds of men.
The one that learns by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
--Will Rogers, The Wisdom of Will Rogers
A Smoker wrote:When I am engaged in commerce, dining out for instance, I and the parties I am doing business with have entered into an informal contract. Part of that contract involves a smoke-free environment if you are doing business with me. During the process of commerce, while I'm eating for example, someone decides to engage in their particular form of self-destruction and lights a cigarette.
Your rights are not being transgressed when someone smokes in your presence, because you are free to leave, or not to breathe the smoke, or to wear a mask. Your rights are being transgressed when someone forces you to do something that harms you or others, or when they harm you directly.
How am I 'free to leave'? I daresay that the owner of the establishment would take exception to my departure before contracts are satisfied, before I paid in this example. As someone who is known to demand a smoke-free environment, why should I be 'expected' to leave? Since non-smoking is something that I demand up front, should not the smoker be ejected if he refuses to leave?
The truth is, when someone lights up in my presence, they are in fact forcing me to engage in their habits. It's a cop-out for libertarians to say "you're free to leave" or "it's a (property) rights issue", because that is just the surface. The reality is much more complex than that.
A Smoker wrote:
Your usage of "informal" is as a euphemism for implied. A contract not discussed and not agreed to is a contract which does not exist.
Informal does not equal implied. The words have different meanings. Walk on a check at a restaurant and see if the restaurateur doesn't think you have a contract. That you are expected to pay for services rendered and food consumed is an informal contract; informal because you did not agree to the contract in writing, in advance.
A Smoker wrote:I have the right to object to harm; and I will exercise that right vehemently.
When people complain about an aspect of free-wheeling liberty (such as people lighting up whenever they please whenever the owner of the property they're standing on doesn't mind), it is my reflexive assumption that the person making the argument would turn a blind eye toward government force should it be stamping down on that aspect of liberty...
OTOH, do you put tags on your car, carry a drivers license, pay income taxes? If you answer 'yes' to any of those questions, then by your definition you can apply the label to yourself, because gov't force is used to mandate things which are infringements on our liberty.
Austin banned smoking recently, and no, I'm not going to spend time fighting that battle now. The alternative wording (signage in lieu of a ban; I would have liked to expand it to allow air quality controls and multiple uses - essentially the status quo prior to the first smoking ordinance, with a nod toward the health issues of accumulated smoke in a confined space) that I agreed with was deemed a compromise by the local activists, and they decided to 'stand on principle' and go down with the ship. Well, the property rights ship sank, and smoking is banned here now, unless the business owner agrees to pay the city for the 'privilege' of allowing smoking. As Austin is "the liberal island in the conservative sea of Texas", this is probably the way it's going to be for awhile.
The net effect is positive for me personally, since health issues are deemed too touchy-feely to be taken seriously by hard-core types. My choices were reduced to either choke on the smoke of the free-wheeling, or breath the socialist air. So my fellow libertarians (who love to talk about choice) forced me to pick the lesser of two weevils. Not a position I relish, I assure you.
[When pressed for evidence on the subject of the harmfulness of second hand smoke, I suggested this publication http://www.acsh.org/publications/booklets/ets.html ]
A Smoker wrote:Back at the beginning I endorsed Rock Howards proposal, so I think we've come full circle here. As another aside, The CATO Regulation article that is being alluded to was addressed in the ACSH article located here: http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.498/pub_detail.asp Needless to say that I think the scientists at ACSH are pretty sure of their numbers.
That's also an assertion. I don't know what study it's based on but I've enough smoking and second hand smoking studies demolished by examining their statistical methods that I don't put any stock in them. Cato has plenty of these. The claim that 400,000 Americans die every year from tobacco is an outright fabrication from the American Cancer Society, for example.
Back to the original question, the only acceptable smoking ordinance IMO is having establishments clearly post their smoking policy at the entrance so you can make your decision before entering, as was suggested by Rock Howard previously
Third round: A non-smoker clears the air on smokers' rights
[Can't find a link for the original article that this references either, the site that it was on has either pulled it down or it doesn't exist anymore. The copy in the Archive at LL is representative of it, however]
About the only thing that the writer got right was that it's not an issue of 'smoker's rights'.
What most of the 'average Joe's' who aren't in the architecture field don't realize is just how controlled building standards are in EVERY OTHER AREA except indoor air quality. The establishment of building codes that spell out minimum standards would go a long way toward addressing the problems of smoking vs. non-smoking; giving more choice to people in the long run rather than a strict smoking/smoke-free establishment.
Back in the 'good ol' days' the upper class spent the money to have 'smoking rooms', because it was ill-mannered to smoke in front of the ladies. Now we're all slaving in a socialist paradise, chucking the niceties of proper etiquette and the class structure, dragging the unwilling along with us kicking and screaming in whichever direction the whim of the majority takes us. Soon we will all be trailer trash (what in math is referred to as a Lowest Common Denominator) and not even the trailer trash will be allowed to smoke. Ah, democracy.
Business owners want one thing over all others: profit. I say fine; but let's get to the real 'cost' and benefit of the systems that we create. restaurateur's and Club Owner's will not take a hard stand for property rights. It doesn't sell food and drink; oh, they'll cheer us on, but they'll toe whatever line that a) causes the least trouble, and b) makes them the most cash in the system. ...and the system does not take long-term health effects into account.
So, you had business owners who were more than happy to crowd everyone together with sub-standard ventilation, breathing each others exhaust fumes, because it was cheap and the majority of the population smoked. Now the majority are non-smokers, don't want to smell smoke, and are willing to subvert property rights (Just as it's been done since the beginning of time) in order not to have to. Guess what? The business owners will make the just-enough-to-prove-a-point noise about it, and then roll over and comply. That's how they 'work the system' to their advantage. They get to appear sympathetic to the 'poor smoker', but they can follow the majority and their dollars into a non-smoking paradise; best of all they get to keep their poorly ventilated, overly crowded buildings just the way they are, and look good in the process.
Best bang for the buck that there is.
This has been my point all along. Ya'll can stay on the high horse of property rights, and loose; and you will loose, mark my words. If it's a choice of defending this myth that business ownership is some kind of grandiose last stand for property, or defending my desire to breath
cleaner air, then I'm going to breath easier. :-)
We could establish that the 'system' should take account of air quality, just as it does minimum structural standards, minimum exiting standards, minimum bathroom sizes, etc, etc, ad infinitum; call it signage, call it minimum codes, call it defending my property, my body, from the negative health effects of your bad habits; even when I'm not physically on land that I own. I don't care what you call it, but it's better than establishing smoking bans all over the nation, which is where we are headed right now. Then we can add Tobacco to the list of black market drugs; how about 'smoke-easy' establishments? Probably already exist in New York.
Do you know what I would love to see? Smokers wearing 'space helmets' to smoke in. With a HEPA filtration system on the helmet, no smoke would escape to annoy the non-smokers. Can you arrest him for smoking in his own private space? Would anyone bother? That would be an argument involving the rights of the smoker, and no one else. Do you think we'd find a volunteer to test the theory? Or does even the most devout smoker balk at being cooped up in small space with too much smoke in it? If you really believe that it's not a health hazard to smoke, then why would you not be willing to?
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
I'm sure some of you out there dismissed my 'solution' out of hand "Bah, more minimum standards. Just another there-oughta-be-a-law solution for problems that are none of the gov'ts business."
Now, if I were talking about 'law', then I would agree with you.
However, that wasn't the subject. Building codes are not laws. Yes, I know, in most places they are adopted and enforced as laws; but they start out as guidelines drawn up by groups concerned about public safety. They are 'minimum standards' for safe building, and are as necessary in the scheme of things as any written manual. Anyone interested in limiting their liability (and most businesses are) will attempt to follow some acceptable standard of practice; so the creation of minimum standards for building was inevitable and actually desirable.
The problem with building codes is that they become bound up in the bureaucracy of gov't. Wander down to the building dept. in nearly any city in the U.S., and you will see the stellar results we get from this approach. In Austin, the indecipherable rat's maze of overlapping authorities has lead to the need to create an office - the 'Development Assistance Center' - just to tell the newcomers where they should start in the maze. One size fits all - and you will comply with the standards.
Tying the codes to gov't has several other undesirable side effects. I want to focus on one of them: The negative effects that rigid standards imposes on innovation. Many of the new technologies face impediments placed in their way by codes that were drawn up before they existed. IMHO, minimum standards for indoor air quality is one of the areas that has been affected by this; which has lead to the panic over the negative effects of second hand smoke.
The solution to making the codes more responsive is to divorce the creation and enforcement of building codes from the gov't altogether. Much like the independent UL (Underwriters Laboratories) creates minimum standards and tests assemblies and devices based on those standards, building codes should be based on logical, definable standards that can be tested, inspected and approved by any sufficiently educated third party. Allow the property owners and the professionals who design the facilities to decide what standards they wish to meet; and then hold them accountable for failures in design.
...and the solution to the smoking issue in the built environment is to create a minimum standard for indoor air quality that addresses the publics concern.
"It is not the strongest of the species that survive,
nor the most intelligent,
but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin
There were arguments along the way that suggested something to the effect that "the average person doesn't care about smoking, and so the smoking ban will never pass if put to a vote". Not too long after the Round 3 discussion, a referendom on banning smoking indoors in Austin was put before the voters, and it passed by a slim majority. Essentially putting "Case Closed" on the subject of smoking here, and reversing the council's transparent attempt to milk cash out of business owners who wanted to cater to smoking clientele.
The battle goes on in court over the new ban, but it doesn't look good. Personally, I don't think the courts want to reverse a ban instituted by referendum, there is such a fear of the will of the majority these days that minority rights (those of individuals and groups comprising 10 percent of the population or less) are totally ignored when the majority deems it 'necessary'.
So the dust up over the 'property rights' of business owners comes to naught, except for those business owners who see a serious dent in their profit margin in complying with the new ordinance. Which is pretty much how I saw it shaping up in the beginning. I'm still waiting for the 'smoke easys' to appear. For all I know they already have.